Leo
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I don't believe in the moon, I think it's just the back of the sun.
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Original Join Date: September 30, 2008
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Post by Leo on Apr 14, 2017 16:46:00 GMT
Jedi Reyyyyy
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Selena
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Odinsdottir
Posts: 318
Original Join Date: February 13, 2003
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Post by Selena on Apr 14, 2017 17:17:07 GMT
I know a lot of people give the new films flak, but I'm very much excited for this and the next one. And honestly, even if the story falls apart, I'll still go watch for Carrie Fisher.
I had a feeling they were going to go the balanced / "Grey Jedi" route. And I know some hate that theme, but hey, look at how many goddamn times the Jedi have been purged in Star Wars history due to all their apathy and/or dumb decisions against their dark side counterparts.
Anakin represented the dark, Luke represented the light, so Rey can fall neatly in the middle. In a sense, the Skywalkers probably have a deeper connection to the Force because they're all conduits / glorified avatars of it. Might be why they're swayed by it more intensely than most. If the Force *is* acting through them, so to speak, then Anakin and Luke's stories both feed into each other to bring us to this. So, all other things aside, Anakin could still technically be the "chosen one" not because some dumbass prophecy told of a Jedi superman who was gonna do everything alone, but because his birth brought this family line of Force "vessels" into existence. It's just a long game.
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Delphi
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Post by Delphi on Apr 14, 2017 18:35:56 GMT
In the past I would have been one of those railing against the concept of Grey Jedi but that was because it was antithetical to so much established lore. Given what happened to the EU under Disney, the majority of that lore no longer exists so I'm okay with this. Kind of relieved even.
I like your theory regarding Anakin and his founding of a bloodline of conduits so to speak. I also like that the new movies are leaning towards my own pet theory regarding the Chosen One prophesy even if Lucas said it was wrong.
My own theory one the Chosen One was that the Jedi and the Sith were at such extremes of the Force that the only option left was to wipe both out completely and start from square one. Kind of Noah's Flood this thing. The Jedi are supposed to be compassionate and in tune with the life giving Light Side of the Force. However in practice the Jedi Order of the Old Republic seemed to be, in my observations, more like the Pharasees in the Bible. More obsessed with the letter of the law than the spirit of the law. They were too busy policing if Jedi were following the "right" rules of the order than the true mission of the Light Side in guarding life. But much like real life, a force for life needs a counterpoint in a force for death. So the Dark Side is a natural part of the Force as death is required for new life to flourish. But it's an untamed, chaotic concept by it's own nature and has a corrupting influence on mortals.
A mortal can't full comprehend a concept like what the Dark Side embodies and their minds and bodies can't withstand it. Hence the seeming madness and withering Dark Siders tend to display. But the Light without it's natural balance with the Dark is just as dangerous. It can start to breed arrogance and apathy towards suffering. If you can command the forces of life so easily you cannot empathize with those who cannot. They Jedi were also like well meaning firefighters of the early 20th century that stamped out every fire they saw believing they were preserving life and doing good. We now know that wildfire and its destruction are a part of the life cycle. It destroys so that new life can flourish. Some trees need the heat of such fires to even reproduce and the undergrowth started to grow out of control and seeds couldn't get a foothold. What the firefighters thought was preserving life was stagnating it and killing it without them realizing it.
The Jedi are too rigid and don't allow the natural chaos of life to push it into new forms. The Force flows and it will find a way to flow around such a thing eventually even if it has to create this agent itself in the form of the Chosen One. It was plain and simple arrogance that when the Jedi heard "bring balance to the Force" they assumed it to mean "destroy the Dark Side" and they would be spared. The prophecy just says bring balance. It didn't say how.
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Masamune
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Post by Masamune on Apr 14, 2017 18:43:39 GMT
For those of you not watching Rebels, they've really pushed forward with Bendu as a kind of strange mystical creature who occupies the middle, neither siding with light or the dark side. That means it's now in the new canon again, which may mean that Luke has pushed towards a kind of grey neutrality as well.
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Selena
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Odinsdottir
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Post by Selena on Apr 14, 2017 18:53:15 GMT
To that end, the Force's long game has two fitting roles for its players. The Sith never wipe out the Jedi, and the Jedi never manage to defeat the Sith. They were both obsessed with this, but they were never successful in their long years of war.
Anakin, who becomes a powerful Sith, destroys his own Order. Luke, a dedicated follower of the light side, destroys the Jedi. Both did this willingly. Maybe that was the "trick" all along. That neither extreme of the Force could be destroyed by their opposites -- but from within. Willingly. Anakin and Luke do just this.
Rey sees this to completion and starts a new, balanced order. Probably more monastic in nature. The Jedi became highly militarized over time, after all.
Not fully up to speed on Rebels, but a similar theme played out in those trippy Father / Son / Daughter episodes of Clone Wars. Rey essentially fills the role of the Father, to maintain balance between two extremes -- mostly out of love and for the sake of peace.
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Post by SteveT on Apr 14, 2017 20:04:10 GMT
People are opposed to Gray Jedi? But Jolee Bindo was the best Jedi!
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Post by DarkJuno on Apr 15, 2017 0:23:12 GMT
For people familiar with Clone Wars and now Rebels, would Ahsoka maybe qualify as being this supposed Gray Side? She's a "good guy," but she left/stayed away from the Jedi Order because she just couldn't deal with how backwards and stuck the council was in its ways even after her name was cleared, and next time we see her she's pretty obviously not following all the rules about emotions and all that. Or is it literally they're in-between the two, and can use both power sets, but KotOR it and use Force Lightning for puzzles and not murdering people?
Anyway, I really liked Force Awakens myself and had no problem with it repeating the beats from the first movie - I would even argue that that was entirely the point, even though I didn't like the Starkiller being another Death Star. This so far looks like it does the thing I hope a next movie would, in that it actually moves the movie's scope and style forward along with the plot and start doing new things, like introducing new ideas and elements while building on what we already know. I'm assuming Luke's line at the end is because he's tried the old ways in re-establishing the order and it all went bad with Kylo Ren, and clearly things need to be different. While I don't xpect the movie people to feel beholden to the "canon" parts of the current EU, yeah, the episode arc with The Brother and The Sister establish that, yeah, the Dark Side sort of just IS, it's not something to get rid of, it has to exist along with the Light side. Though with all the deliberate Rebels references up to and including using the actual physical Chopper prop the show crew uses in their behind the scenes bits in Rogue One, someone somewhere in the chain is being careful about it.
I'm actually really glad this one is being directed by a guy who isn't completely and utterly hostile towards the Prequels too. Yeah, there's a lot wrong with them, but they still happen, and they can use that history for good here.
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Selena
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Odinsdottir
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Post by Selena on Apr 15, 2017 0:45:23 GMT
I'd say Ahsoka definitely qualifies as a "Gray" Jedi -- that was essentially the culmination of her story. I imagine the Bendu stuff also feeds into it.
While the movie people have more freedom than everyone else, this is where Disney owning the franchise really comes into play against Lucas controlling the franchise. Lucas was never overly consistent with his story themes and canon information. Disney really takes the big picture into consideration. Because that company is pretty much built on franchises. I'm fairly certain none of their Grey Jedi themes in the "side shows" are a coincidence. This is a big coordinated effort that will all come to a head. Ahsoka, stuff from the Clone Wars, the Bendu, etc. -- it will all feed into the story to reward diehard fans with a bigger picture than just the movie-goers.
They won't make the movies dependent on the TV shows, since they know not everyone has watched, but they'll definitely tailor the shows to work with the movies. They probably laid out the whole plan before filming on the first movie even began.
Supposedly Anakin is back for this upcoming film in some capacity. Sounded like 8 was going to have at least a couple flashback sequences / visions. Looking forward to see what Hayden's performance is like with another director. He was never a bad actor.
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Egann
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Post by Egann on Apr 21, 2017 21:38:08 GMT
My opinion about The Force Awakens notwitstanding, that's a decent trailer. The emphasis on action makes me concerned they won't touch the lore when in fact it's kinda high time that they did spend some time on the lore. The Mortis arc is, in fact, still canon for instance, which raises all sorts of questions.
In my opinion, the Chosen One status is still up for grabs. The best interpretation of the events in Mortis I can come up with is that Anakin, while born the Chosen One, chose to refuse the mantle by refusing the Father.
The Gray Jedi discussion: According to fan-established definitions, Ahsoka is a gray jedi because she left the order, but I disagree with this terminology. She has never shown any affiliation to the dark and I can't think of a single time she used dark force powers--remember, she's literally infused with the Daughter's life force. I don't think it's coincidence she chose Ashla--the ancient name for the light side of the Force--as her pseudonym. Calling someone who is a literal embodiment of the light side of the Force a "gray jedi" because she lost faith in a dying order misses the point.
That said, I think the force power Luke used to absorb Sidious's lightning at the end of RotJ is probably a dark force power. My guess is he negated Sidious's hate with his own love of his father and love is dark, not light. If it had been a light force power, Yoda would have been able to use it when he first fought Sidious, but he used tutaminis instead.
And then there's the fact that both death stars and starkiller base were force-powered weapons. I don't think their use had no effect on the force.
...I digress. As you can see, there are a lot of lore questions up for grabs and just answering one of them could make for a compelling movie. I just doubt they will because producers are allergic to good worldbuilding.
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Selena
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Odinsdottir
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Post by Selena on Oct 23, 2017 1:34:30 GMT
*thread revive* All right. Apart from some little TV spots, all the trailers have dropped. We're finally in the home stretch now. The last trailer hinting at some possible lore being incorporated into the last Jedi, which would be fun to talk about until the film releases and proves us all wrong. Put under a spoiler tag for anyone who didn't want to watch the last trailer.
The final trailer is cut to make it seem like Kylo is the super-powerful student that Luke couldn't control, but at the same time we're seeing hints in the training shots that it's actually Rey. So my missus and I both instantly assumed that Rey -- in response to the Knights of Ren attacking the temple -- had a Carrie-esque meltdown while she was terrified and accidentally destroyed everyone/everything.
Force Wounds / Snoke
Based on some rumors, there might also be some elements from Old Republic era incorporated into the new movie. Namely, that Snoke is actually an ancient dark side practitioner with abilities that fall in line with Darth Nihilus (KOTOR 2) and the ancient Sith Emperor (TOR).
There's a concept called a Force Wound. It occurs when there's a sudden and massive loss of life (like Alderaan). If a Force sensitive person is caught in the middle of such destruction, their senses become so overwhelmed that they sever their direct connection to the Force with such ferocity that they essentially become a living void --- constantly craving energy to replace their lost connection to the Force, but the hunger is never sated. Darth Nihilus was one such person, and his hunger was so intense that he began by unintentionally draining the life essence out of other people. Culminating in him "absorbing" the life essence of entire planets prior to his defeat. Because the hunger grew more intense as time went on.
Lord Vitiate (the ancient Sith Emperor) had more or less weaponized this power to make himself ageless. Unlike Nihilus, he had actual control over it. He'd strategically drain a planet of life to extend his lifespan.
Absorbing other powerful Force users was like eating a calorie-dense cheesecake or something. More potent than eating the life force of random peasants. So the rumor is Snoke has also mastered this ability, which explains why he's so ancient. Evidence in support: In the books, Jakku was once a forest-world, but is now a barren desert devoid of indigenous life. Palpatine was immensely interested in Jakku and its secrets before his death. And you know Palpatine would've given his left nut for the ability to become immortal.
Rey - General Surik Role?
Building on comparisons to KOTOR, then Rey might play a similar role to General Surik / the Jedi Exile in KOTOR 2. Both the Exile and Nihilus were Force Wounds, and the Force circled around Surik with such intensity that they had the ability to strongly influence other people -- pulling them to the dark or light side accordingly. This may explain some of Rey's enhanced abilities. Especially if she had been in training before the temple attack.
My Leading Theory So Far:
* Snoke is an ancient dark side practitioner who was released on Jakku around the time the Empire fell. * It is possible he first absorbed the body of Gallius Rax, a book character who was on Jakku (Aftermath: Empire's End). * He then took command of the First Order. * Snoke has been influencing Kylo since Leia was pregnant (another book tidbit). * In addition to feeding off war, it's possible that Snoke wanted to cultivate and possess/absorb Kylo. * Since, being a Skywalker, Kylo has above-average powers.
* Snoke later discovers Rey, who has scary-potential. * Snoke abandons plans to have Kylo for dinner and instead uses him as a pawn. * Snoke orders the Knights of Ren to capture her from the temple. * But she loses her shit and destroys the whole place. * Luke gets scared and bolts, seeking to understand wtf just happened. * Kylo is likely her cousin or brother, so he was likely unwilling to actually let the kidnapping happen. * In Rey's flashback in 7, baby-Rey is saved by someone with a red saber. * Kylo instead abandons her on Jakku, hoping no one would find her.
^ This would explain why Snoke doesn't seem to fully trust Kylo / why Kylo is trying hard to prove himself. ^ If Rey unintentionally severed her connection to the Force due to trauma (as Surik/Nihilus did), then this explains why her memories are repressed. And why she's regaining abilities at a scary-fast rate.
If Rey also ends up being Leia's younger child, it'd also pair pretty well with the old EU Jacen vs. Jaina storyline.
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Veteran
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Vet's status is nondescript, only updated to spam those following me. :p
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Post by Veteran on Dec 15, 2017 0:24:12 GMT
Having been disappointed by nearly every movie this year bar Wonder Woman, I thought if there was one movie I would allow myself to get hyped for it's this one. No spoilers here so don't worry, but... ...I didn't like it.
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Selena
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Odinsdottir
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Post by Selena on Dec 15, 2017 5:17:57 GMT
I haven't seen it yet, but was compromised by spoilers shortly after the press premieres. I was also displeased with the major plot points, though I assume the action and visuals are nice. I figure a lot of people will have honeymoon periods with this one (kinda like with Rogue One). Where the action might be so awesome that people forget that the story is a hot mess until much later.
I also have a feeling that casual Star Wars fans will like it, but the diehard fans (who have religiously read/watched extracurricular material) will either be heavily divided or outright disapprove.
I'll be seeing it on the 19th, so I'll talk more then.
General take on the new franchise so far: Like the prequel trilogy, all the coolest stuff is in the books/extra goodies outside of the films. I really liked the Bloodline novel.
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Leo
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I don't believe in the moon, I think it's just the back of the sun.
Posts: 280
Original Join Date: September 30, 2008
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Post by Leo on Dec 15, 2017 21:02:31 GMT
So I liked the movie as a whole but if I could summarize it, it's like an RPG where the main quest is iffy but all the side quests are spectacular.
The Rey-Luke story where we find out what really happened at Luke's temple, Kylo and Rey's small talks, the lightsaber fight scene. The main story with the Resistance being chased at a 20 mph speed was a bit of a letdown - like 70% of the movie was based around that one cruiser. Also the Finn-Rose team would have been better as Finn-Poe which is strange that it wasn't since Episode 7 built up that friendship from the get-go.
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Post by DarkJuno on Dec 17, 2017 5:00:51 GMT
I liked it. I had some issues, not getting too specific, but I liked it quite a bit - I didn't have nearly as many reservations about it as I do Rogue One, and for better or worse, it definitely told a solid, simple continuation of the story.
Though the thing I figured would happen in all three of these movies kept happening, though given real life circumstances I don't know if it'll keep happening in Episode IX. If nothing else, the cinematography is gorgeous, from the big money shots to even just the more typical camera shots and angles.
And hey, background red guys actually did something.
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Veteran
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Vet's status is nondescript, only updated to spam those following me. :p
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Post by Veteran on Dec 17, 2017 21:08:08 GMT
I have to ask both you and Leo - given how this film ended, what is there to look forward to from Episode 9? I don't mean that in a rhetorical or dismissive way, I genuinely wonder what could happen in the next one that completes this trilogy's story? While I enjoyed Force Awakens a great deal I didn't like the wanton destruction of Starkiller Base. Too many planets blown up means nothing to save at the end of the trilogy. Here we are two thirds in and... Kylo Ren is the only bad guy The entire Resistance can fit into the Falcon Luke's dead Leia's 'dead' Akbar's dead No last name for Rey No Republic to defend The only thing I can think of that would get me moderately excited is a return for Lando.
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